Listen: How to divorce and separate well with Jill Johnstone

Podcast Transcript: How to Divorce and Separate Well

Host: Sabina Read

Guest: Jill Johnstone (Family Lawyer)

Sabina Read: Welcome, Jill, to the Separation Guide podcast. We often speak here to experts as well as people with lived experience, and you tick both boxes, both personally and professionally. So, can you give us a little insight into how living through your own separation has changed the way that you practise as a family lawyer?

Jill Johnstone: It has given me a really unique insight into understanding what my clients are going through from the other side of the emails, phone calls, or messages that you get from your lawyer. I used to see an email from my lawyer and my heart would stop a beat, and you think, “Gosh, what next?”

I’ve brought that into my practice in terms of really remembering that I’m there to serve my client in a way that they best want to be communicated with. That might be a phone call before you send a cranky letter from the other side to give them a heads-up. It’s having an awareness of their schedule; if they’ve got young children, you don’t call at 4:55 pm because that’s “witching hour”. It’s being aware of the little things, and communication is a big part of that.

The other thing that really helped me is realising that everything really needs to be child-focussed. It’s not about the parents; it’s about the children. Sometimes you’ve got to take your own client on that journey, kind of re-educating them. I had to go through that process as well, with my lawyer reminding me what we were actually focussed on.

Sabina Read: How do you do that when you’re working with a client who’s in their own world of pain, grief, and resentment? How do you refocus them on the well-being of the children?

Jill Johnstone: It can be quite hard. It’s trying to get people to focus on what the actual end goal is and every time trying to pull them back with that focus. Often you can get caught up in the minutiae—the detail that you won’t remember in years and it actually doesn’t really matter—like whether changeover is at 4:00 pm or 5:00 pm. I try to get them to focus on the big picture.

Sabina Read: Salient words. What will we remember and what is the end goal we’re working towards? Why do you think this conversation about how to separate and divorce well is important now?

Jill Johnstone: There are many more people going through separation than in years gone by. People—women and men—are feeling more empowered to end relationships when they’re not serving them. It matters to me because I see my job as helping people to get through the process as quickly, calmly, cheaply, and conflict-free as possible. It is possible to have a separation like that. I see those cases; they aren’t the ones that stick in my brain because they come and go quickly, but it is possible.

Sabina Read: Family law is sometimes misconstrued as transactional or high-conflict. What feels most misunderstood to you about the industry?

Jill Johnstone: The biggest thing is people are petrified of seeing a lawyer because they feel the perception is that they’re “lawyering up” or going into battle. Most family lawyers are actually really focussed on alternative forms of dispute resolution, not court. A big misconception is that lawyers just like to fight and drive up legal fees, when in fact it’s the opposite. Most are trying very hard to dampen everything down and focus on the outcome.

Sabina Read: Looking back on your own separation, what surprised you most emotionally?

Jill Johnstone: The main one was the reality of the shared care arrangement. You know your children are not going to be with you all the time, but the actual reality is something you have to work through. In my case, I had a one and a three-year-old on a week-about arrangement.

You’ve got a week with children on your own which is very taxing as a single parent, and then it’s just complete silence for a week. Thursday nights for me were either, “Oh my gosh, I’m so glad they’re going to their father’s tomorrow because I’m exhausted,” or, “I can’t wait for them to come home because I really miss them”. I navigated that by filling up my other week—being with friends and family and getting to know myself again because you go on the back burner when you have young children.

Sabina Read: Did that experience shift how you understand conflict?

Jill Johnstone: Conflict really just comes from people not communicating exactly what they want or why they want something. They make demands or use positional negotiation, which doesn’t help anyone. If you actually understand the “why” behind what you want, then the other person can suggest alternative ways to get to that same outcome.

Sabina Read: When clients first walk through the door, what kind of emotional state are they in?

Jill Johnstone: Most people are apprehensive and uncertain about their rights and obligations. There is often a lot of hurt and judgment over what the other person has done wrong. I tell people that if they weren’t upset and emotionally deregulated, I would be concerned! It’s very human.

I call it out and say this is a biological, chemical thing happening in your body, and it’s normal. I suggest taking little breaks during meetings, having a cup of tea, and refocusing on the plan. Every time someone gets deregulated, I pull them back to the ultimate outcome we are trying to achieve.

Sabina Read: Where do misunderstandings between clients and lawyers usually show up?

Jill Johnstone: Communication and expectations around communication. Some clients will send an email and then call you immediately; that’s just how they operate. Some lawyers unfortunately forget they’re in a role of service and try to make the client meet how they want to operate. I encourage clients to clearly articulate their communication preferences—whether they prefer things in writing or after hours—to help themselves and the process.

Sabina Read: What behaviours does it take to stay out of court?

Jill Johnstone: Trying to maintain open communication with your former partner, if it’s safe to do so. The moment you just hand ball it all to a lawyer, you lose that. I’m really not well-placed to talk about little Johnny’s school shoes moving from house to house; parents will have to talk to each other again eventually.

Also, get legal advice early. It’s about understanding the framework—what would a financial settlement look like or can I keep the family home? Getting that advice early gives you the framework to have those conversations with your partner and then come back to a lawyer to turn that agreement into something formal.

Sabina Read: If you could choose one value to guide separation well, what would it be?

Jill Johnstone: Integrity. Have integrity with how you approach the conversations, the process, and your solicitor. Also care and compassion for yourself, your former partner, and the children.

Sabina Read: What tends to keep people stuck in conflict?

Jill Johnstone: Not having the ability to have an open mind to other ways to solve a problem. A really rigid mindset—like “the children have always been with me and they won’t cope”—is a breeding ground for conflict.

Sabina Read: How do you help bring out that flexible growth mindset?

Jill Johnstone: We focus on the outcome and ensure they are getting support from other professionals like counsellors or psychologists. I literally tell them that I am a very expensive and under-qualified person to download on. I stay in my lane of legal advice and help them find others who are experts in those other lanes.

Sabina Read: What do you wish most clients understood before they began the legal process?

Jill Johnstone: That it does take some time; it’s not going to happen overnight even with a lovely agreement because you want to get it right. I also wish people knew the impact of witnessing conflict on children. It’s not separation or divorce that actually hurts children; it’s exposure to conflict. That includes subtle things like body language and shrugs of shoulders. Children are so perceptive; they pick up on everything.

Sabina Read: What should listeners look for when choosing the right lawyer?

Jill Johnstone: Number one would be that you feel like they understand you—an instant kind of rapport. You’re trusting this person with massive parts of your life. Most members through the Separation Guide have a 15-minute complimentary call. Use that to see if there is a connection and if they understand where you’re coming from.

Sabina Read: What are three top tangible actions people could undertake now?

Jill Johnstone: 1. Get legal advice. The other party doesn’t have to know, but understanding the framework is vital. 2. Be mindful of conversations in front of children. 3. Collect financial documents. Get access to details about bank accounts, superannuation, and loans before you separate to make the process easier later.

Sabina Read: How would you define a “good separation”?

Jill Johnstone: Coming out the other end able to still talk to each other and be near each other at your children’s assemblies. It doesn’t mean you have to co-host birthday parties, but you can coexist with respect. For example, tomorrow is my eldest daughter’s graduation, and I’ll spend eight hours with her dad and my husband. We are there for her.

Sabina Read: Where is the growth in this process?

Jill Johnstone: Realising that I could do it all on my own was very empowering. I also found that part-time parenting isn’t that bad once you get over the initial shock. It means I can lean in hard for a whole week and be an amazing mum because I know I’m going to have a break. It carves out time for you as a parent and for you as a person.

Sabina Read: What would you want someone to hear right now who is feeling scared or overwhelmed?

Jill Johnstone: You get through it. It’s a process, and you have no idea what amazing, fulfilling life is waiting for you on the other side. You’re standing on the edge of a cliff and you just have to jump and trust that you’ll be okay.

Sabina Read: One last thing—is there anything we missed?

Jill Johnstone: One thing I lived with was the consequences of entering into very rigid parenting orders when my children were one and three. Now I’m careful about drafting orders for the long term. For instance, I agreed that Christmas was always with their father’s family, which became difficult later when I re-partnered. Be careful to think about how orders will practically work over time as the children develop and new partners enter the picture.

Sabina Read: Great advice. Thank you again, Jill!

Jill Johnstone: Thank you very much.