Listen: Debunking narcissistic behaviours in divorce

Sabina Read: So relationships, what kind of focus?

Ahona Guha: Yeah. So all types of relationships. So it’s not just intimate relationships, but it’s essentially the work I do clinically. So, helping people understand how the early blueprints in life transfer through to all of their different types of relationships and the patterns that they bring. Whether we’re talking about things like schema chemistry, attachment styles, um, and how we really transfer earlier patterns into our present-day relationships. This also brings in a lot of the current world because it feels…

Sabina Read: Well, what’s your take?

Ahona Guha: …like relationships are changing in our current world. So, I try to focus on looking at that and how our brain and our behaviours are changing as well.

Sabina Read: This is not recording, I’m just curious about attachment style because it seems to have, it’s blown up.

Ahona Guha: It’s proliferated, right? Look, I think the TikTok version of, you know, “you’re avoidant and so you can’t have a good relationship,” or whatever it is, it’s very overblown, very overdone. I think the reality is, to actually diagnose attachment styles requires training and some pretty complex measures.

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: So the Adult Attachment Interview. So there’s no way that we can generalise in the way people are. I think it’s still a helpful mechanism and guide, and we can start to use tendencies, but not in the way it’s being used at the moment. It’s kind of the new trauma, I think. You know how trauma… And that’s what it does, right?

Sabina Read: Yeah, I think so, too. I don’t know. I mean, of course, we know algorithms, but I’ve sort of gone down a bit of an attachment style hole with a particular client we started talking about, and then I was looking things up, and then, of course, now my feed’s just attachment, attachment, which I don’t know.

Ahona Guha: Look up something, it goes, “You must want more of this.”

Sabina Read: I know.

Ahona Guha: You can make… Yeah.

Sabina Read: I know. Um, yeah. And this person’s got quite an avoidant style and it makes sense to me why he does because, well, all this… I don’t need to explain it to you.

Ahona Guha: Same.

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: Yeah. I’m quite avoidant myself, but I still have some really functional relationships.

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: And, you know, it… Yeah, it kind of makes sense. And I don’t have any psychopathology because of it.

Sabina Read: Yeah. Yeah.

Ahona Guha: It’s one of those tricky things where, yeah, we just over-interpret so much. Mhm.

Sabina Read: That’s it. Well, that’s one of the things I want to talk about today with narcissism. So, when’s your book… When’s your book coming out, mate? Okay. So, well, I’ll ask you at the end if you’ve got any… Did I actually put… I don’t know if I put… But yeah, I do.

Ahona Guha: Yay.

Sabina Read: Yeah, I’ve got that sort of done. Yeah. Um, okay. So, is narcissism something that you work with?

Ahona Guha: Obviously, forensically, you know, it’s probably more common within my forensic practice. And with my clinical practice, it will be more former partners or because I see a lot of women who’ve been impacted by domestic and family violence.

Sabina Read: Yeah. Yeah. In the clinical… Yeah. Yeah. So, I thought, yeah, when we wanted to do this topic, I thought, oh, you’ll have a good sort of cross-fertilisation of experiences and ideas around it.

Ahona Guha: Yeah.

Sabina Read: So that’s good. Okay. Um, and have you sent me… I don’t even know if I asked you a bio because after I record this, then I’ll record an intro and it’d be useful just to have… Actually, it’s good if you don’t do it…

Ahona Guha: I can probably use the one on the Scribe website because that’s reasonably up to date. So, I’ll just pop a link in the chat.

Sabina Read: If can you email it?

Ahona Guha: Email it to you now.

Sabina Read: Yeah, because I’ll I’ll close this and then lose the um… Yeah, let’s…

Ahona Guha: Yep. So, it’s [email protected]. Okay. Oops. Okay. I think that should probably work.

Sabina Read: I’ll just have a look.

Ahona Guha: Yep. And just so you know, Sabina, I have a client at three.

Sabina Read: Okay.

Ahona Guha: So, imagine longer. It’s gone through.

Sabina Read: All right. Let’s go. All right. I can’t see that coming through, but if it’s gone through, I mean, yeah. Okay.

Ahona Guha: Yeah, perfect.

Sabina Read: Okay. All right. I’m going to push… I’ve pushed record there. Um, as I said, I’ll do an intro later, so we’ll just jump in. Um, so Ahona, thanks for joining us on The Separation Guide podcast. This is a really loaded topic, I think, for a lot of people. So, can you help by starting to define what narcissism is and why do you think the phrase is so often misused?

Ahona Guha: Look, I think in terms of what we are actually thinking about when we talk about clinical narcissism, we often think about a person who’s quite self-absorbed. But really, if we were to look at the DSM, so the diagnostic and statistical manual that we use for actually diagnosing people, there are quite a few elements to it. So, there’s essentially, I think, the grandiosity. So when we talk about grandiosity, we are talking about people who have really, really strong, very positive self-interest or self-esteem that can at times almost be possibly a little bit delusional in nature. So, it’s not fully reality-based because if you’re a world-class doctor and you think you’re a world-class doctor, that is not being narcissistic, that is actually reality. Um, but there are also other features. We are looking at people who have a really strong need to be admired. We are also often looking at a lack of empathy, which is why, I think, probably when we talk about abuse and trauma, we often talk about narcissism. Because it’s not just the grandiosity that we see coming through—people who are just grandiose can be happy by themselves—but it’s actually the need for admiration, the lack of empathy, the capacity to maybe utilise other people for their own ends, and often a certain proneness to anger, especially when their own self-belief is challenged, that we see when we’re talking about a more classic narcissist.

Look, as to why the term is used a lot, I think it’s caught on in our imagination as being shorthand for people who behave badly. I’m trying to be polite here and trying not to swear in the first couple of minutes, but essentially, I think that that’s the way in which we’re using it. You know, a lot of the people who we talk about using this shorthand are probably not going to be clinical narcissists, but they may be arseholes. Um, yeah.

Sabina Read: And so that kind of brings me to my next question, which is, let’s unpack the difference between narcissistic traits or tendencies—and everyone has some of what you’ve described; it sits on a spectrum like so many other conditions—and then narcissistic personality disorder, which, as we both know, is a clinical diagnosis. How would you separate the two? You’ve defined the latter for us. So let’s look at narcissistic traits that fall outside a clinical diagnosis.

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Look, I think essentially, like you’ve said, it is a spectrum. So when you meet the certain criteria for a personality disorder, you have to have a certain number of criteria amongst all of the symptoms. They also have to meet a level of functional impairment. So there has to be impairment within your relationships. And I think a key feature that we often miss is that this is a pattern that’s not restricted to one set of relationships or one type of relationship when we’re talking about a personality disorder or style. Even if it’s not at the full-blown disorder level, we are talking about things that pervade multiple aspects of a person’s life. So, they’ll be similar at work, with their children, with their partner, with their friends. Whereas, I think if it’s more traits, you probably won’t see quite the same level of impairment. You’ll see people who are able to pull things together at certain times. They may just have the one trait, or the traits may come and go at times, and they’ll be more or less functional but can still be damaging.

Sabina Read: Yeah. And I think we need to be mindful that for some people, labels can really illuminate, and for others, they can be quite inflammatory. So what’s your insight or advice there about diagnosis, labels, as opposed to just exploration of style?

Ahona Guha: Yep. I always prefer the latter. I am not a fan of labelling and diagnosing unless I’m seeing someone clinically and it’s for the purposes of treatment. I think labels, especially in this context for this podcast, you know, a lot of people listening to this are probably going to have ex-partners that are problematic, and there might be a sense of safety or maybe comfort in labelling someone, but essentially, I don’t think that that overly helps define the behaviours. It doesn’t really help us learn how to navigate them. If anything, if we think that someone is, say, a narcissist or a psychopath, that can often put our back up and we might sometimes respond in ways that are less than helpful without a clear recognition that this is a person too. You know, a person who might be behaving very badly, who might have behaved very badly, but that we need to essentially get along with, even if that’s just for the purposes of property settlement or parenting and co-parenting, because…

Sabina Read: Yes. Or parenting moving forward. Yeah.

Ahona Guha: …that is so important and something I see so much of in my rooms.

Sabina Read: And I wanted to talk about that and we’ll get to that later. Just lastly, while we’re unpacking what it is and what it isn’t, is there such a thing as so-called adaptive or healthy narcissistic qualities?

Ahona Guha: I think to a certain extent, yes, because like you’ve said, these are traits that we all have. And if we think about a person who doesn’t have any self-esteem—because essentially self-esteem is really the thing that is sliding along the scale here—you know, they’re probably going to be prone to be abused by other people. They’re going to be taken advantage of. They’re probably not going to have any boundaries. So, I think it is important to have a healthy sense of who we are. But as always with most psychological traits, I like to kind of stay somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. And I feel a bit Buddhist because I often talk to clients about staying on the middle path. Um, but essentially that is probably where I see this: that we want some of those traits, but we don’t want to edge into being overly self-inflated with our own self-belief, nor do we want to be overly self-denying about our own worth.

Sabina Read: Mhm. That’s well explained. If we zoom now into romantic relationships, we’re obviously talking very much through the prism of separation and divorce on this podcast, particularly long-term partnerships or marriages. How do you think narcissistic traits show up in everyday dynamics? And what does it feel like to be on the receiving end?

Ahona Guha: Okay, look, I have no firsthand experience here, which I suppose is very lucky. Um, but in terms of what I’ve observed, so in terms of my work, I work with perpetrators of harm. So, that’s probably where I see this behaviour in more of a full-blown capacity. But then I also have a lot of clients who’ve experienced domestic and family violence who tell me about their former partners as they’re going through trauma therapy. So that’s my experience with it. I suppose what we typically see in terms of conflict, and especially after a relationship has ended, is when the full-blown narcissism or tendencies are going to start to balloon. And that’s usually because that’s when someone’s self-belief is challenged. There’s also probably a sense of anger that, “How dare you try and leave?” You know, “How are you challenging me? How are you saying that I’m not good enough?” And what we probably notice there is a lot of conflict because a person’s overinflated self-esteem is challenged.

In terms of daily behaviours within the relationship, you know, probably a sense of control. And I think we often think of control as being something that someone deliberately does because they want to be controlling. But in my experience, it’s probably more that they think that their way is the right way. And so they exert a level of control. They may refuse to listen to the needs of their partners or kids. They may prioritise their own needs. You know, I’ve heard of things like a former partner spending thousands of dollars on his own hobbies while his wife was struggling to find money to feed the kids; things like not allowing her to actually leave the house to spend time with her own friends because he doesn’t think that that’s important; you know, being overly critical; being overly focused on status and on maintaining a certain image within the public eye. These are all the ways in which it can manifest.

Sabina Read: And people often describe narcissistic partners as very charming in the beginning and then, you know, it develops into some of what you’re talking about.

Ahona Guha: Absolutely.

Sabina Read: Do you think there’s a common trajectory?

Ahona Guha: Yeah.

Sabina Read: Because we’ll have people listening at different junctures here. Some who are in a relationship with a partner with narcissistic tendencies, traits, or full-blown diagnostic patterns. Others who are in the process of leaving a relationship. Others who have embarked on the separation process. And others maybe at the tail end of the divorce process. So I’m curious if you think there’s any pattern here, particularly the beginning stages, the honeymoon phase of a relationship with someone a narcissist.

Ahona Guha: Look, I think, I think that’s been understudied. So I probably wouldn’t be able to speak about that from a well-informed research perspective, but anecdotally, what I probably see is a lot of superficial charm, which is the term that we use clinically. So it’s not a true charm because a true charm is being good-natured, being kind to other people and being caring, but it’s more a “I want to be admired,” which is the superficial charm that we see, which can get someone hooked. And one of the key things I’d say with any type of abusive relationship, whether it’s driven by a person who is more narcissistic or has a different type of personality structure, is that we often see the early charm and the sense of “I really want to win you over and lock you down.” Um, and it’s once the initial honeymoon phases are over, which can be for some people days, weeks, or months based on a partner’s predispositions to maybe being quite hooked by this type of behaviour, that’s probably when you see the mask start to slip a little bit. You might start to notice certain things. And my sense is that it’s only when the partner will challenge the other person—will either say no or will say that actually you aren’t right, and this is the right way or this is what I want to do—that we’re going to see more of a full-fledged abusive, angry experience.

Sabina Read: You’ve mentioned control. I wonder if you’ve got anything else to share there around power or control or emotional regulation challenges that might show up in a couple dynamic?

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Look, I think the fragility of a more fragile narcissist. So, we’ve got the two types usually that we talk about. So, we’ve got the grandiose narcissist who just genuinely believes that they’re fantastic. That type is often actually a little bit easier to manage because you stroke their ego. I mean, very tricky if you’re a former partner. But if we look at someone like Donald Trump, you know, easy to kind of manage him. You just give him praise. Though, I do think he does have elements of fragility because when he’s threatened, he tends to erupt into anger. So, I often use him as a more accessible example. Um, so for a more fragile narcissist, which is a person who at core believes that they’re probably defective, but they’ve actually built this outer shell of being really invulnerable and really self-aggrandising almost, you’d notice the really strong anger and what we call almost a narcissistic rage experience. And I will say that in my forensic work, I’ve been on the receiving end of it. It was probably the one time I’ve cried at work after the client left because there was something so palpable and so directed about the anger and the rage, and he knew exactly the buttons to push for me. Um, so you’d probably see some of that. You probably see someone who flip-flops between charming when you give them their way versus who’s more withdrawn and cold when they don’t get their way. Um, probably see a person who’s very focused on their own image instead of actually focusing on connection and care.

Sabina Read: It’s quite confronting listening to the description that you bring to the table, and I wonder what level of insight or self-awareness people who sit on the narcissism spectrum might have about their behaviour. Yeah.

Ahona Guha: Very little is my usual inclination to say. And one of the key things that we know about personality disorders is that people who have a full-blown personality disorder are often the ones who believe that they’re absolutely fine. And one of the key things with more personality disorders is this projection of blame outwards. Um, quite interestingly, when I’ve worked with people who’ve been more narcissistic, one of the key things that they’ve often come to me with is tales about other people in their lives who they think are quite narcissistic, which I think is this projection of responsibility and blame outwards—are parts of themselves that they don’t want to acknowledge that they’re splitting off. Um, but it’s just been an interesting pattern that I’ve noticed.

Sabina Read: I’m now thinking I’ve seen that in a clinical setting as well in intergenerational patterns in families with parent and adult children.

Ahona Guha: Yeah, that’s exactly where I’ve noticed that sometimes with former partners as well, but it’s been more with parenting because if we think about why a person is the way they are, you know, a lot of this is genetic,

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: but it’s also learned behaviours. Yeah.

Sabina Read: The old nature-nurture million-dollar question. So, we’re talking about kids. Now, let’s talk about parenting in the context of separation and divorce. And parenting adds enormous complexity to any relationship regardless of who the parents are or who the children are. How do you think narcissistic traits can affect parenting behaviours, decision-making, um, and the emotional climate that children grow up in?

Ahona Guha: Look, the crux of what I’ve seen, especially after separation, is that if a partner’s more narcissistic, then the kids are used as a pawn. And then it’s not about the child’s best interests. It’s almost about using them as a way to get back at the former partner for daring to leave, or the sense that a child’s best interest, which is really meant to be the guiding principle, is aligned with what the more narcissistic partner wants. So, I’ve seen things like withholding access to healthcare, especially therapy is a very common one. You know, firing therapists because they’ve dared to challenge the partner who might be narcissistic. Um, pulling kids out of school, you know, wanting to move children interstate without any thought about the other partner’s career. And of course, the long-drawn, protracted Family Court battle, which, when there’s a high-resource family, can be something that, you know, can take up years or decades at times.

Sabina Read: And what are some realistic strategies that can support boundaries and well-being for the children and also for the partner?

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Look, I think for the partner, the main thing I would say is having a really good support system. I think that is really important because especially if there’s any Family Court proceedings or if there has to be co-parenting, it’s going to be a long-drawn-out process. It’s not going to be forever. And that’s one of the things I say to all of my clients who are really feeling quite stuck and quite hopeless because usually when kids get to about 14 or 15, they’re more independent, they are able to kind of get around. So you don’t need to be as active, and they can also choose whether they go to see the former partner. So, we are really looking at a period of maybe a decade or less.

Sabina Read: Mhm.

Ahona Guha: So, I think a really good support system is very important, and that should probably include a GP as well as maybe a therapist and friends, friends and workplaces—just all the good informal supports.

Sabina Read: Mhm.

Ahona Guha: Um, I would say keeping things as unemotional as possible. And that is really hard. But one of the key things I see is that there’s often so much anger in a partner who’s been abused and who’s left. Um, and that’s really understandable, but often it can move into a space of point-scoring or wanting to win as a way of showing the more narcissistic partner that they can’t control a person. And that can just become a very harmful back-and-forth tug-of-war. So, I would say focus on the outcome that you want is what I always advise people to do. And when you’re taking an action, sit down and think about whether this specific action, whether this text you’re about to send, is going to get you what you want. Learn to pick your battles as well. There are some things that are probably not worth fighting about, and there are other things where you really want to go into bat.

Sabina Read: Mhm.

Ahona Guha: Um, and yeah, learn some good emotional regulation strategies. You know, breathing, yoga, taking a step away, using apps to communicate. All of these simple ways to create a few layers of separation are going to be really important. I think radical acceptance is really helpful as well, which is not approval, but it’s just a sense that this is how things are and I can’t change it. This is who my ex is, and I can’t change them. Otherwise, we can get stuck in trying to change a person.

Sabina Read: And guilt as well.

Ahona Guha: So, I think, yeah, absolutely.

Sabina Read: “How did I choose… how did I choose this person? And now look at the ramifications for the family unit.”

Ahona Guha: And, you know, we all make our choices with the best information we have at the time. So, I like to work on helping people see hindsight bias, that, you know, we’ve got all of this information now because maybe we’ve been with a person for 10, 15 years. We’ve had kids, we’ve seen their darker side. Probably wasn’t the case right at the start. So, it’s important not to move into the guilt and shame spiral, but just to maybe learn from it for kind of next time. And yep, just focus on keeping your head above water.

Sabina Read: And do you have any thoughts for children who might be caught in triangulation or loyalty binds or emotional manipulation?

Ahona Guha: That’s, yeah.

Sabina Read: And I guess it depends, of course, on the developmental stage of the child. But let’s talk about it actually from the perspective of slightly older children who have got a level of independence. What could they do when they sense some of these patterns playing out? Because they don’t want to typically disappoint one parent or the other. A lot of children try not to side with one parent or another, although they ultimately do.

Ahona Guha: It’s very difficult to know how a child is going to respond and whether they have a certain loyalty that is built in because of what might have happened within the family. Um, essentially what I would say to an older child, you know, someone who’s 13-plus, is that picking a line, which is “I don’t want to be involved between Mum and you,” is probably the best way. And then just learning to be a bit of a broken record. If a child is used as triangulation—”Tell your mum this, tell your dad that”—just starting to say, “Actually, I don’t I don’t want to be involved. I don’t want to be in the middle.” And I would say to a child, seeking supports outside the family if that’s happening a lot is really important.

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: So most schools are going to have counsellors. Really, really important and hopefully a safe place to go with some of these concerns because it’s not a child’s job to be able to advocate between the parents, to be able to resolve issues, to feel guilty, you know, because of the split. There are all kinds of things that can be laden onto children, which is really unfair. So I guess just some compassion and extend some compassion towards themselves as well. This is really rough.

Sabina Read: I like what you say about, you know, picking a line and sticking with it. It’s almost like media training. You can let the child sound like a politician.

Ahona Guha: Broken record. Exactly.

Sabina Read: That’s no problem if they can, you know, exactly.

Ahona Guha: These are unprecedented times.

Sabina Read: All right. Let’s focus a bit on the divorce and legal processes and how narcissism might show up there, particularly in pathways like mediation, negotiation, court. How might narcissistic traits impact the process?

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Yeah. Look, I guess what I’ve seen is an absolute reluctance to engage in mediation. Often a sense of “I want to have my own way and I want things to be done exactly the way I want.” “You know, I want my former partner to suffer” is something that I often see. So, “I’m going to draw out proceedings even if it costs me hundreds of thousands of dollars in the Family Court, because at least I know that they aren’t going to win.” Not thinking about a child’s best interest is key. And really denying a partner’s needs as well, or a former partner’s needs. Um, I’ve often seen things like hiding money can be very common, and I always recommend that if someone has a partner who has some of these traits that you get a good forensic accountant on as part of your team, because that can be very common when people go from suddenly earning $250,000 a year to $10,000. Um, yeah, these are all the forms of behaviour that I see, and also abuse by text messages or ongoing stalking-type behaviours can be very common as well because there’s this anger and there’s this utter incapacity to manage emotion.

Sabina Read: Mhm. Do you think there’s a point where traditional mediation isn’t appropriate due to some of the power imbalances, manipulation?

Ahona Guha: Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. I think that when there’s ongoing trauma, abuse, or there’s a strong power differential, it’s going to be very hard to find a good outcome through mediation because mediation really assumes that both that both parties want to come to the table.

Sabina Read: Mhm. I mean, it raises the question that for a lot of lawyers who may not be well trained or versed in this behaviour, that they’re taking someone on face value and could actually inflame or collaborate unintentionally.

Ahona Guha: That’s what I see. Yeah. And each time I work with clients who are going to the Family Court and there’s been histories of domestic violence, that is often, often what I see: the former partners’ lawyers, you know, trying to do their best, knowing that the court system is quite adversarial, but typically inflaming trauma and allowing a person to continue the abuse through the lawyer’s actions. And yeah, that that happened to me as well within a within a former relationship a long, long time ago.

Sabina Read: In what way? What part of that?

Ahona Guha: Um, we were engaged in some legal proceedings and the lawyer that he had didn’t recognise some of the themes of coercive control and essentially was was used to further, um, yeah, to further silencing.

Sabina Read: Mhm. So what are some… You’ve talked about some practical tools, but I guess, you know, so far we’ve got a really good sense of what narcissism is, what it is not, how it shows up in a relational setting, and how it’s often inflamed by separation and divorce. So are there any other practical tools people who are listening are thinking, “Okay, all right, this is this is what I’m experiencing,” because it can be really crazy…

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Yeah.

Sabina Read: …making as…

Ahona Guha: It’s crazy-making, isn’t it? Exactly. Look, I mean, this one is going to bite because a lot of people who’ve been abused will understandably not want to do this. But I think focusing on what the buy-in for the more narcissistic person is, that is really important because if we tell them that “you’re bad, you, you know, you’ve done something wrong,” if we label the behaviour, we’re not going to get anywhere. It’s actually going to get their back up. So when I work with a more narcissistic client, I provide lots of praise because that’s actually very helpful for getting them on your side.

Sabina Read: Ow.

Ahona Guha: I make sure that when they do something right or that I like, I I name that. So it’s a very subtle form of behaviour shaping, you know, positive reinforcement, but also focus on the buy-in. You know, and for some of my forensic clients that is, “Well, you don’t want to go back to prison. I don’t want you to go back to prison, so hooray, we are on the same side.”

Sabina Read: Come on.

Ahona Guha: You know, it might be different in Family Court. It might be something like being clear about, “Look, you know, I think we both want the best for our kids. I understand that you’re a great father.” Even if we don’t believe that, we might have to say that sometimes. And I realise I’m being a bit gendered here, but I also… I think, I mean, I don’t know why that is.

Sabina Read: I was going to say, I was going to ask that. You’ve mentioned fathers…

Ahona Guha: It might be that, well, we know that domestic violence occurs more often to women. It might be that the people who are drawn to my practice are often women, but I’ve seen a lot more narcissistic behaviours amongst male former partners than amongst women. So I’m just being gendered because that’s what I’ve seen. I’m not saying that that’s an accurate reflection of the picture.

Sabina Read: Do you know any stats around gender and diagnostic?

Ahona Guha: I don’t actually. I would have to go away and look that up. I know that the percentage of full-blown narcissists is quite small, but again, you know, people often don’t volunteer to be assessed.

Sabina Read: Okay.

Ahona Guha: Yeah.

Sabina Read: So I really… that’s very practical actually and it might feel counterintuitive when you’re feeling fearful and frustrated and hurt and like you can’t make sense of their behaviour. And that doesn’t mean you’re capitulating or agreeing or supporting the behaviour, but you’re finding ways to manage it to make the path forward for you and the family unit and the separation process smoother.

Ahona Guha: Exactly. And you’re playing the long game here.

Sabina Read: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, how can someone respond when their narcissistic ex plays the victim card?

Ahona Guha: Oh, that’s a tricky one. Um, it depends on what outcome the person wants and depends on the context, I would say. So if it’s in the context of court and if it’s in the context of saying, “No, I was the one abused,” then that’s probably one to address through legal channels.

Sabina Read: Mhm.

Ahona Guha: I always recommend people keep a strong paper trail, um, because that is really important when things when things go to court. If it’s just in a text message, you can probably acknowledge the emotion. You know, “I can understand that this feels hard for you now,” and then come back to the core message that you want.

Sabina Read: Yeah, I was thinking more outside the courtroom and more the dynamic between the couples, between…

Ahona Guha: Yeah. And look, I I always think that not getting too stuck in the emotional context, especially if a relationship’s ended, which is the context that we’re talking about here, is probably appropriate and helpful, because I think the sense of going back and forth and talking about who was victimised and who wasn’t, you’re probably not going to get anywhere. So, I think if your long-term goal is just to get things done and move on, you know, just simply acknowledging that that sounds hard instead of a “no, it actually wasn’t that way,” which can be so tempting, it’s probably better. And then writing a very angry letter which you burn.

Sabina Read: Yes. Or sharing with someone, not your not your ex.

Ahona Guha: Exactly.

Sabina Read: And there’ll be some listeners who are thinking, “Am I going to be in this pattern or dance forever, even though I’ve now we’ve separated or even divorced?” Um, particularly when we’re parenting over a lifetime, is this ever going to be any different?

Ahona Guha: Yeah.

Sabina Read: What does repair… I guess the question there is what does what does repair look like in a separated couple?

Ahona Guha: So very… I think for repair to happen, both parties have to want that, and I know people who end a relationship and who co-parent together really beautifully and that is excellent when that happens. But if there’s a power imbalance or if one party wants to hurt the other because there’s a sense of being wronged just because a certain person’s left the relationship or has addressed difficult behaviours, then that’s probably not going to happen. Look, it may happen down the track because people’s behaviours soften as they age. And I would say, you know, a more narcissistic partner might at some stage move on and move their attention elsewhere and maybe their behaviour towards you will, if not soften, it might… you won’t be you won’t be the focus of their attention anymore.

Sabina Read: Mhm.

Ahona Guha: But I guess the reality is that as long as you’re co-parenting, you know, there’ll probably be a level of having to walk a bit of a tightrope. But again, like I said, you know, once the kids are about 14 or 15, that’ll probably end.

Sabina Read: Yes.

Ahona Guha: You’ll still see the partner at certain key stages, but it’s not going to be the daily engagement.

Sabina Read: And you did talk a little bit about, um, we talked about intergenerational patterns and who’s actually the narcissistic one. I don’t know if you’ve had any experiences of this, but I’ve seen clients with a narcissistic partner who start to question themselves, “Maybe I’m the narcissistic one here.” Have you seen that pattern or that dance?

Ahona Guha: That’s the gaslighting and crazy-making that you’re talking about. Yeah. Because it’s often, and I think one of the key things that someone who’s more personality disordered, you know, whether you’re talking narcissism, possibly psychopathy, even sometimes BPD with very big emotions, it might be a sense of them just wanting to deny reality because it’s very confrontational for their self-image to see the ways in which they’ve stepped up. And one of the key ways in which all of us are going to do that is project, you know, “It wasn’t me, it wasn’t me, it’s you.” So for a partner who might be given more towards self-doubt, you could see how they could very easily start to question themselves, especially if they’re being told that by someone who’s really confident and charming and and over many…

Sabina Read: And over many years. Well, let’s let’s try and wrap this up with some level of agency and hope and I guess positivity in some way.

Ahona Guha: Exactly. So, I absolutely have seen that pattern often.

Sabina Read: What gives you hope for people navigating separation from a narcissistic partner?

Ahona Guha: That it’s going to end, that the worst part is over. You know, you’ve been in the relationship and you’ve left the relationship. And even if you have to parallel parent, which is another approach, you don’t you don’t have to have the daily level of contact. And especially once the initial years are over, usually once the property settlement and the child access question has been sorted, things are going to fall into a pattern. I think, um, and that you can go on to build a life that is bigger than your ex-partner.

Sabina Read: Yeah.

Ahona Guha: I think that that’s really key to keep in mind, otherwise the hopelessness can really set in and…

Sabina Read: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And what about any, um, books, uh, resources, content, either your own? Like how do how do our listeners learn more about you and what’s or if you’ve got any other resources that you think fit this topic?

Ahona Guha: Yeah. So, my favourite clinical author who writes about narcissism is probably Wendy Behary. Um, she’s a clinical psychologist, I think, and her work is excellent and not pop-psych driven, which is really important to me. She keeps it real, but she keeps it evidence-based. Um, in terms of my work, I do have a book about trauma, so about complex trauma. And I think that this will probably maybe encapsulate many of the themes that we’ve talked about today. And I have another book that is upcoming that is about relationships and it’s called How We Relate. And I do explore some of these themes, including the patterns that might drive us to find more harmful partners. And that’ll be out through Scribe publications next year in May 2026. Both.

Sabina Read: Congratulations. That is a book that many of us are going to be keen to read. Do people find or keep in touch with you through your website or through socials? What’s the best way?

Ahona Guha: So I have Instagram where I largely share things about books and my dog. Um, and I also have a website.

Sabina Read: I’m laughing because we follow each other on Insta and we both have a lot of dog content.

Ahona Guha: Dogs are the best.

Sabina Read: They are the best. All right. So, it’s Dr. Ahona Guha that you would find on socials and on your website. It’s been very informative as always. I I like your your level-informed approach. So, thank you for your time.

Ahona Guha: Thank you. It’s always a pleasure to be interviewed by you with your level questioning. Honestly, it’s so hard.

Sabina Read: Happy days. All right. Thank you.

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(Non-recorded chat starts)

Sabina Read: Um, how are we going? Because you’ve got, yeah, 2:45. So, that’s good. Um, no, I think is there anything else that we haven’t covered? I think you explained that so so beautifully and insightfully. Like you obviously have actually had a lot of clinical and forensic experience.

Ahona Guha: It’s one of the, yeah, one of the trickiest spaces for me to be in as a therapist because the countertransference are so intense.

Sabina Read: Yes. Yes, I I can make sense of that.

Ahona Guha: Yeah. Yeah.

Sabina Read: Yes, I can. I’m not doing because at one point I’m going to push and record.

Ahona Guha: Yeah, that’s okay.

Sabina Read: Um, and I’ll stop this too. Um, I don’t know if I can actually stop that because because Ann is recording it, but but just a quick question. Nothing to do with the pod. You pulled back on clinical work at one point, didn’t you? And now it sounds like you’ve kind of got, and you went back to study and then something to… Yes.

Ahona Guha: Yeah, that was a shamozzle because they accused me of using AI for an assignment and I went, “Look, I don’t have the capacity to do the assignment, to pay to pay for the course, to take time off clinical work for it.” So, I ditched that and went, “Look, I’m kind of mid-career now. I I can probably work in public policy without this degree.”

Sabina Read: Um, wow.

Ahona Guha: So, I ditched that. So, I’ve pulled back. So, I’ve pulled back on clinical work a little bit for the next little while, but look, longer term, I think I’d really like to write a little bit more, but I am wanting to move into fiction and crime fiction specifically. So, that’ll be that’s that’s kind of the longer game.

Sabina Read: Oh, I look forward to watching you fly and I mean, you’ve got such such beautiful insights and experience to bring to that.